There is currently overwhelming support for moving off of Wikia.
As such, I have started development of the new site. We are still in the process of setting it up, but it will be available for viewing and account creation by the end of this next week, and will be completely ready to move by late February or early March.
There has been some delay with setting up the site, sorry for that. The people who needed to do the first bit have been quite busy.
In the mean time, if you were going to do any major content improvement, I'd recommend not doing it until the site moves. The further out of date this one is, the better.
As always, questions can be asked below or on the details page. Ajraddatz (Talk) 18:21, February 16, 2013 (UTC)
Last time, at Forum:Possible move, we decided some stuff about moving. This forum is to decide whether they still apply.
Domain - brickipedia.org, also brickimedia.org for other uses
Skin - Vector or Deep sea (a skin we will (hopefully) create that will be a slightly more oasisised version of vector/monobook (will hopefully appeal to those who like oasis))
Ads - an ad along the left hand side under navigation - google ads
Well, there are ways and means, ways and means. (repeating the phrase twice to make it more ominous) ~ CJC 20:46, February 4, 2013 (UTC)
See below for another perspective on this :) -- sannse (help forum | blog) 19:30, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
Sannse's rather wrong on this one. While we will have an initial drop, all of the other fansites hate Brickipedia's ads at the moment, and are able to help us direct traffic away from this site and to the new one. Ajraddatz (Talk) 19:32, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps it's fairer to say that our opinions differ on this one :) I'm going from past experience with other forks from Wikia. As I said below, I can give examples if that helps -- sannse (help forum | blog) 18:07, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
Meh. The only thing I like the sound of is the brickipedia.org thing (Before I joined, I used to type brickipedia.com to find this site. That didn't work. :P) Other than that, I'm not so sure. Neutral --LEGO2013Helper (talk) 20:56, February 4, 2013 (UTC)
Support. βʊʛ™Ʈҩƪҡ - Customs 20:58, February 4, 2013 (UTC)
I don't get your logic.. normal people will still be able to edit the wiki, so "troublemakers" are still an issue.. it isn't that hard to follow us there. βʊʛ™Ʈҩƪҡ - Customs 01:59, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
Probably once we've decided that we're absolutely sure we want to leave. Jag 03:43, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
Not until we've got it all working and looking nice though, theres no point getting all the trafic after we've just moved and it all looks horrible. - nxt
Under normal conditions, I would support a move, but, unfortunately, if we were to split, I'd doubt that I'd want to create yet another account in order to join yet another seperate website (since I have enough trouble keeping track of the ones I'm already a member of). Sir_REX Strikes Back 05:49, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
Your account will be moved as well, so you will just need to log in. Jag 07:05, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
To clarify this, Wikia doesn't give your passwords to the new wiki. It's possible for the fork to duplicate accounts and get you to enter your password there (and then verify it's the same as the Wikia one by logging in with it). But I want to make sure it's clear that we don't share your password with anyone. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 19:25, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
I think that the only way for us to grow is to move. Be done with these silly advertisements we don't get to choose, and also just be able to customize what we want. klagoername that user 13:33, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
Support Good point. I'm with you on that. talk 15:34, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
I'd love to be able to get rid of all the ads, and being able to customize it would be awesome, too. How much of the Wikia skin will we be leaving behind, though? Will there still be blogs, chat, and other features? If there is, I'll support. If not, I'm neutral. Drewlzoo
1 question the fourm was talking about cake so.... erm :S User:NuffSaid1995/Sig
Here's your cake, sir. CJC definitely knows how to get user's attention. :P Drewlzoo
Not Really I see nothing wrong with this wiki. Sure we have ads and spammers, would we all be able to edit the next website? No more chat on the next website? And what happens to our accounts? -LazerzSoH --- Destroy, Destroy,Exterminate!
I've tried explaining accounts, but will leave it to someone technically. I will say that, yes, anyone could edit and that I'm not sure where the misconception that people won't be able to edit is coming from. ~ CJC 18:03, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
Why move the wiki? Wouldn't that mean the pages and templates would need to be remade? Also what about the Chat? RaceLordtalk, Lord of Nothing
More reasons than I care to go into right now. No. Nothing about the chat will change. --Berrybrick(Talk) 03:51, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict) The pages and templates would all be moved across easily. We could use IRC. And btw, when I came, there was no chat -__- Jag 03:53, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
And the accounts. Your password wouldn't be moved across or something, but it will be verifiable. Jag 04:28, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
Personally, I would rather stay on this wiki. Wyplashtalk 04:14, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
Note to people not thinking that this move will be beneficial - there is a reason why a vast majority of people here support the move. We are trying to be a LEGO fansite, but the restrictions that Wikia gives us are honestly too much for that to happen. I'll try to expand on this later, I'm in a bit of a rush to get sleep right now :P Ajraddatz (Talk) 04:45, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
I support the decision to move. If we do, we need heaps of coders to help set up the new site.Then a bunch of people to move all the pages over to the new wiki
(including userpages and accounts). This is the hard part, as then we'd need a bunch of admin to delete the moved pages. We only have, what is it, 18 admin now? we would need a whole bunch of users to become admin to delete the 26000 moved pages. I think this move is an awesome idea, and even though I'm not an admin, I volunteer to lead "Project delete" if this goes through. (If this suggestion has been said before, I haven't read the whole page so sorry) BrikkyyTalk Extras!
I read over the reasons, and I think if we're moving for those reasons only we should say here. The media we use now is fine, and I like the skin. The forums work well and chat seems to be working fine. The badge system is excellent in my opinion
Hopefully, I will soon have a working demonstration of what we would be moving to that I can show you. It is true, the forums and chat work well, and the badge system is good - all of these aspects will be kept at the same level, at the very least, after the move. This move is about more than just the social aspects of the site though, it's about the core principle behind this encyclopedia's existence - to deliver the content. Regardless of whether or not you like this skin, what we are hoping to move to would be far superior in this regard. Also, on our own hosting we will be able to do things such as hosting semi-regular contests with real prizes, expanding our influence with other sites, etc. Anyway, as I said, hopefully I'll be able to show you a somewhat finished project soon-ish. Ajraddatz (Talk) 00:27, February 10, 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, Wikia won't allow 26000 pages to be deleted :P ~ CJC 09:32, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
I think it is time to move on and it will be interesting and fun to experience a new Brickipedia. --BrickSticks (talk) 07:39, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
(sorry if this is a bad place - I wanted to comment, but obviously I'm not someone who can vote here :)
Hi everyone. For those who saw the discussion last time, this is a bit of a repeat from me. But it's really the same things I need to say - that we very much hope you will decide to stay, but that we respect your right to fork, of course. I'm here to answer any questions or help in any other way I can.
I think the first point I can comment on, is Cligra's comment about whether a fork would retain readers from Wikia. Our past experience shows that some readers will find the new wiki, but it's likely that more will not. We've had several wikis recover well from a fork now, with a new community growing where the previous one was. Where that's happened (and even sometimes where it hasn't) there are many more visitors and pageviews on the Wikia version than on the fork. I can give some examples of this if it's helpful, just let me know.
That's not to say that forks don't hurt a wiki of course. They are always painful things for any community to go though, and I hope we can avoid one here -- sannse (help forum | blog) 00:13, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
lol, you found this pretty quickly. Nice to know any attempt we make to move will now be impeded. Ajraddatz (Talk) 00:34, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
If you mean I'll try to give good reasons not to move, and honest information on why it would be better to stay on Wikia, then yes :)
But I think you know from the previous times that the community has discussed this, we talk things out and try to solve problems, that's all. Wikia was created as part of the open source movement. In fact, part of the reason for its creation was to show that open source and for-profit could successfully work together (which, I would say, it has done). But the open source movement has always had the option of forking, if enough people feel that's the best thing to do for the project. So what I hope, is that I can supply enough information and support to help you all make the decision not to fork.
Aj, I know you have been increasingly unhappy with Wikia, although I'm not totally clear on what went wrong. But I hope our past conversations will help in us talking about this.
And, of course, I'm happy to answer questions from anyone else too, and to talk specifics about the practicalities of forking. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 19:18, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
Actually, I think we can handle this fork very well by ourselves. I am well aware of the boundaries that Wikia has for forks, and we won't break them. Ajraddatz (Talk) 19:23, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
Hi Sannse, just some random general thoughts:
Firstly, I presume the boundaries haven't changed since Wikisimpsons left?
Main points now, Re: why people feel a need to move.
I think its been bubbling, with some admins especially, for a while (I'm sure we first considered, albiet fleetingly) back when Oasis was introduced.
Its felt - especially by older users - is that we have less choice over the wiki now. In many senses that isn't true - things like WikiFeatures have expanded our control in some areas. But there are other things people want to do and also other features we had no choice in - I hate to sound like I'm holding this against you (I'm not) as I brought it up with you before, but the new Wikia search. Its a minor thing - but its something that affects how people use the site and just sorta happened without (correct me if I'm wrong) much notice before or after it was enabled.
Of course the main thing is advertising. I'm not sure if the levels have gone up or it is just more intrusive (with the likes of video ads and giant banners). I'm not going to discuss this much as I'm sure you've heard it many times before.
An issue caused by the advertising is the effect it has on the wider LEGO community - Our reputation was never great, because of the quality of information. Now it seems that people like the site as a resource, but are put-off by the advertising.
Perhaps, it just comes down to wanting to feel like edits are more valued as well. There gets a point editing here (one I've reached and I'm sure others have) where you don't see the use in editing. Partly it is because of my wish that things be perfect, which goes against my urge to do as little as possible. But I think a contributing factor is the idea that Wikia is a for-profit company.
I've sorta rambled, and I apologise for the bullet points, I was intending to write paragraphs when I started :P ~ CJC 21:52, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for laying it all out like that CJC it's very useful. I've passed this on to others at Wikia, and hope to hear their thoughts soon.
On forking boundaries: I'm not certain what was said during WikiSimpsons' fork, but iirc it's all the same. If we get to that point, I can confirm the details -- sannse (help forum | blog) 18:41, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
Have to aggree with CJC here, we lose a lot of respect in the wider LEGO community because how how the oasis skin is not geared towards content like other sites are. - nxt
For example, on an oasis page, I get 670 px of content width, with 330px of, frankly, unrelated sidebar stuff. On a Brickset page, I get 960px of content-width, and 0px of unrelated sidebar stuff. - nxt
It seems that Nintendo certainly have respect for this wiki :) They contacted us to offer LEGO City games content for this wiki. Jorge's blog about this is here. This sort of industry relationship is something we've been working on a lot recently, and is definitely something we want to continue. I can't speak to other sites' opinions, but I also believe that there is a lot more to content than it's width, and it seems Nintendo appreciates what you have built here -- sannse (help forum | blog) 00:22, February 9, 2013 (UTC)
I'm sure they would respect you of course :) But they would have the working relationship and future plans with Wikia and this wiki. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 00:31, February 9, 2013 (UTC)
But could that relationship be considered to exist between Nintendo and the existing community? If they knew we moved, and everyone currently here moved (in other words, the current community), then wouldn't they still have a relationship with us? -- BrickfilmNut Productions!
Of course they would. Sannse is just playing all of her cards to try and negate the years of Wikia completely ignoring the needs/wants of this project, which I have no doubt will continue as soon as these discussions are over, no matter the result. Ajraddatz (Talk) 00:46, February 9, 2013 (UTC)
BrickfilmNut: Wikia has the contacts, and dedicated people in the office who are trained in making and improving those relationships with various companies. Nintendo will still be working with us on things related to Brickipedia (and no doubt other Wikia wikis) whether this wiki forks or not.
We've been developing this side of what we do for a while now, which is why wikis have started to have things like competitions for beta keys, meetups at events, and (for one movie related wiki) an actor in chat with the community. It's still new, but it's great to see
Aj, I'm doing what I said I would: trying to "give good reasons not to move, and honest information on why it would be better to stay on Wikia".
We aren't always active on specific wikis in the way I am right now on this one, but that doesn't mean we are ignoring the wiki. I mentioned some of the background technical work we do, and that's just a slither of the support we give all wikis. We'll never be able to say "yes" to every request, but we do what we can to provide for every wiki directly and indirectly - whether there's a fork discussion there or not. In fact, I've always made time to listen to you personally and to try to help. It's been a while since you have pinged me on Skype, but you always have my contact there -- sannse (help forum | blog) 02:28, February 9, 2013 (UTC)
The whole +/- thing again
Article Ratings Extension! Many of you will not know, but NXT created an extension to handle the article rating system a lot better than current. (It allows only certain users (QCG) to change ratings (preventing vandalism), and is generally better, there are a lot of places we could go with it.) I did ask Wikia back in the summer if they could implement it here, but nothing's happened. If we have our own place, we could implement it straight away, and updates and improvements would be almost instantaneous (they would take AGES (if it ever gets implemented) here.)
There will still be ads.
Possible drop in traffic.
@ NXT's extension- so is it ready to go? I was under the impression that Wikia only denied it because there were problems with it NightblazeSaber 22:11, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
There were problems that Wikia had with it, but it works. Ajraddatz (Talk) 00:25, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
I've looked at the ticket... apparently there were a few problems that made us feel it wasn't ready. The example in the ticket is that the version we looked at, would not be able to keep the ratings with the article if the article were moved. NXT may have worked on it since then though, so we can always re-assess -- sannse (help forum | blog) 18:35, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
Well a week or so after I submitted it, I was given some feedback, I submitted an improved version, but haven't heard back since. (That moving issue is a good one Sannse, I didn't think of that (interestingly enough, the first edition would have coped with that, but not the revised one (but that's an issue for another place))) - nxt
Hummm.. that's odd. It was the version which would have the move problems that was mentioned on the ticket (I assume, as that was the example) so you should have got the feedback on that one. I can ask someone to contact you and sort that out - sannse (help forum | blog) 22:49, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
BrickfilmNut, on this reversion... yes, it does change the meaning a fair amount, because the current meaning is misleading. The chat here will not be available as an extension of the new wiki. If the fork goes ahead, the chat here will belong to this wiki's community - which will be made up of anyone who chooses to stay and/or any future community that develops. I won't revert your reversion, but perhaps you could correct it above? Thanks -- sannse (help forum | blog) 00:19, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
I reverted my edit. :) I only reverted yours earlier because I figured that either it was something that was going to be discussed further somewhere else on the page before a change was made or that the change of meaning was unintentional. Sorry. :) -- BrickfilmNut Productions!
np, it was an understandable revert. Thanks for the fix -- sannse (help forum | blog) 22:56, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
Wait so people who moved couldn't use the chat here?
Will it be possible to develop our own extension? I know some people do not like chat but it may be needed to convince some users to move. --Brick bobbytalk it's a trap! 20:24, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
Working on that as we speak :-) Ajraddatz (Talk) 20:26, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
I'm definitely not saying that people who use the new wiki will be banned from chat. I'm saying that it's not as simple as saying "we'll edit over there, and chat over here". You can't use Wikia to promote another wiki - so, for example, if people in the chat were linking people to the fork, then that would be a problem. And, ultimately, the chat would belong to whatever community is active on this wiki. So those people would be the ones to decide who used chat and in what way (as long as it's within Wikia's overall ToU and so on, of course)
It would be a complex situation, and not one that we've ever had to look at before. The tricky part is that sometimes people use chat and don't edit - and that's fine (on most wikis). But at the same time, it's a chat for this wiki, and making it some sort of official chat for the fork wouldn't be OK. How exactly those two things would work out in practice, I don't know yet. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 22:44, February 7, 2013 (UTC)
Since Brickipedia is large enough you could request Wikia to let you control your own advertisments. The only way they would allow you to do so if you use the money off the advertisements to pay for a site domain which. This is how it works,Brickipedia's Admins inform Wikia of their plan on buying a site domain. After accepting their terms of having a site domain (which will likely include how much a year you must pay and how to get your advertisers to pay to Wikia or pay it to Brickipedia). Once they have done this Brickipedia can have control over their advertisements. Brickipedia may want to limit their ads as much as possible , but the best way to do this is by charging the full price of about 10 dollars for a short term advertisement that may be apriopate.
We might as well just move. Ajraddatz (Talk) 01:40, February 8, 2013 (UTC)
There's been a lot of voting already, and I can see that many people are in favor of forking. I'm also aware that Aj and the others who are getting prepared for this are likely to be a long way towards being ready, and that the fork may happen soon.
So I'd like to have another try at persuading you all that Wikia is the best home for this wiki. Although I believe the wiki can survive a fork, I also know that this is a good and strong community who have made a wonderful wiki. So we would be very sad to see any of you move to a new fork.
I think the major issue I've seen mentioned is the ads. It's always tricky to get the right balance of ads - we don't want to scare people away, of course, but we do need enough to make Wikia successful. It's something we look at often, and we're currently running several tests to evaluate things like “if we remove this particular ad placement, will people view more pages?”. And there's a lot more work on improving our ads that's scheduled for this year too.
But, I also know all that is going to sound rather empty. It's all about possibilities and the future, and not about what the wiki looks like now. So what I want to suggest is that we remove a couple of ad placements for this wiki for a set time, to give us a chance to show you that we can (and will) keep improving on the overall experience on all aspects of Wikia. So the question is, which ads would you most want removed? Hopefully we can identify a group that annoys you most, and that we can agree to remove. Will you work on this with us?
I said I would expand on the "againsts", and I think the biggest one is that you are almost certain to lose traffic by moving. Looking at past forks shows this pattern well. Here's some data I pulled up for another wiki when they were considering forking (they decided not to). So for example, the forked version of Fallout currently receives just under 600,000 pageviews a month. The version on Wikia has fully recovered its community, and has more than 26 million pageviews a month. For WoWiki, the numbers are around 5 million monthly for the fork, and 20 million monthly for the Wikia wiki. And for the Pokemon wikis, it's about 370,000 pageviews for the fork, and more than 26 million pageviews for the version on Wikia. I know that you are expecting links from other LEGO communities to help bring in visitors, but even with that you should expect to leave a significant part of your audience behind.
I realize that it can seem somewhat restricting to be part of a big hosted site, and there's an attraction to being out on your own with all the controls in hand. But I also know that being part of a big site also brings advantages. You get new features like chat, you get an amazing amount of technical and other know-how, you have multiple servers and systems that keep your content fast, you have publicity and events that help build everyone on Wikia's profile and bring in new people to your wiki, and groups like the VSTF to help maintain wiki alongside their admins.
So, I hope you will reconsider and stay with us here. This wiki has a great future, and it would be great if this community, who has done so much to get the wiki this far, would be around to see it. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 01:01, February 8, 2013 (UTC)
Obviously, the pageviews would go down, but in the longer term it is possible for a moved wiki to surpass the Wikia version - or so happened with the Transformers wiki. It really is a shame that Wikia is the only organized, viable wikihost, but we have a sufficient technical team to maintain us, good virtual servers to keep pageloading fast and reliable.
While it's nice that Wikia finally decides to care about the ads when we threaten to leave, I doubt that any lasting or useful change could come out of this. Quite simply, the skin we have here promotes the other crap all around more than the content - removing a group of ads won't fix this.
In regards to the benefits of groups like the VSTF and Wikia tech team, the tech team has done literally nothing for us over the years - no help with the rating extension, not enabling it, etc. The only useful thing that the VSTF does here is perform checkusers against local policy, invading quite a few user's privacy for little or no reason, and without even letting the local checkusers know. Fortunately, they stay away with their other rights. A bit more to follow later. Ajraddatz (Talk) 01:16, February 8, 2013 (UTC)
I remember when I got checkusered for creating an account called dictatorcjc - Nothing like going on to checkuser and seeing your name at the top of the log :P ~ CJC 19:10, February 8, 2013 (UTC)
Actually, Aj, Quantcast says that Tfwiki got 19,523 unique US visitors in December (it doesn't give global pageview info, which I usually prefer). For the same month, the Wikia version got 39,304 unique US visitors. Do you have a source that shows something else?
The offer to remove some ads now is in response to the idea of forking of course, because we want to show good will and want to show that our ongoing work on ads is something we're already committed to. I recognize that the benefits of that work are in the future, and you need to see something now, but the work itself is something that's not specific to this wiki or related to the fork plans. My hope is that the removal of some ads now, will help you to decide to stay long enough to see the results of that future work.
On the extension - I've mentioned elsewhere that there are technical issues with it that mean it can't be installed in it's current form. It seems there may have been a problem with some information being passed back to NXT, and I'm talking to other staff to fix that.
If you have problems with the VSTF, please let us know! They have criteria for when they can and can't use checkuser, and we definitely want to know if there's a problem there. They have massively reduced spam across Wikia, but that doesn't mean they are perfect, and if something goes wrong we need to know in order to fix it!
Look sannse, I don't want to sound rude - but this is our decision not yours - we've had to go with whatever stupid stuff you add here, which makes this place wors,e and then you implement these new features that never work out well, we could have moved months back but we stayed here, hoping for changes, but you keep making us want to leave, there is almost no way you can persuade us to stay here, enough is enough, and we are sick and tired of being discriminated due to the ugly site look your company made. Czech
I absolutely agree that this is your decision CzechMate (well, the collective "you", as you said :) My role here is to try and show another perspective, and hopefully persuade you (or some of you) that staying is a better option. And alongside that, it's also to try and learn more about why you want to go. I know some of the reasons, including dissatisfaction about ads and the skin, but the more I learn the more we can try to do better in the future. So as well as writing here, I'm also reading, and passing that on to others at Wikia. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 05:14, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
Sansee, with all due respect, even though the Wikia version of Tfwiki got 39,304, the new Tfwiki got 19,523! Once we do this move, almost 20 thousand visitors in one month would be great! Does it really matter how much the other one got? Are we competing for the most views?
Also, how many view did they get before the move? If it was under 20 thousand, then they would have improved from there. –AgentCharge 19:40, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
No offence, Charge, but I highly doubt that the wikia version suddenly got double the amount of views after they forked. :P -- BrickfilmNut Productions!
Generally, it's been about stable, although there were a couple of big peaks, which I assume were at the time of releases (I would guess that there were also peaks on the fork for those months). The data only goes back to a few months before the fork, so I don't know if it was busier further back, but the average for the three months before the fork was 43,042 and for the last three months was 40,834 (this is probably a bit TMI actually, I'm not sure what it says other than wikis can recover, and forks are likely not to have as much traffic as the version on Wikia - all of which I've said) -- sannse (help forum | blog) 22:04, February 25, 2013 (UTC)
I don't think it makes a difference whether it's on Wikia or not. Wikia can only help new people find a new wiki. Having a big name people can remember like Brickipedia will get lots of traffic; being the most complete LEGO Wiki will get a lot of search traffic. Plenty of people will stay and continue to find the site. --ToaMeiko (talk) 22:13, February 25, 2013 (UTC)
I don't know if it's worth starting a whole section over, but will the sub-wikis be moved away from Wikia as well? Or only a select few? Jay
More info to follow. We are looking into some of the non-Wikia ones. Ajraddatz (Talk) 02:02, February 8, 2013 (UTC)
Public service announcement
People need to be reasonable and civil when discussing stuff here and in the sub-forums. I'm not saying people are being unreasonable/uncivil.
Obviously people have different reasons for wanting to move. Some people just hate Wikia and adverts and all that stuff. Others have other reasons (Trying something new after 5 years here, etc.). Sannse has her reasons for arguing her points too - She believes Wikia is better and also its her job. Both sides have perfectly valid arguments.
Everyone here believes what they believe because they think it will be best for the site, themselves and the community. Sannse is never going to say "Actually you guys should move, Wikia sucks". And people who hate Wikia is never going to go "that idea sounds great, lets stay here". But that does not permit people to be rude to Sannse and people wanting to stay, and vice versa. So, basicly, just remember that everyone here are people and will feelings and emotions, etc.
Thank you CJC for putting this down. I've wanted to put down something along the lines of this myself (but probably not as well worded), however I didn't really feel it was my place to do so, considering the users who (I see at least) this message should be referring to. I've given up on even visiting these forums lately because of the rude approach some admins have been taking here. Yes, many of us want to move. That's no excuse for not being civil about it. NightblazeSaber 23:06, February 9, 2013 (UTC)
Per NBS. I too wanted to say something, but was worried about making things even worse. :P Oh, and about CJC's message, I felt like applauding upon reading it. :P Thank you, CJC! :D -- BrickfilmNut Productions!
Thanks CJC :) I hope that nothing I've said has sounded rude or disrespectful, that's definitely not my intention at all. There is no one involved in this discussion that I think badly of - quite the opposite in fact! -- sannse (help forum | blog) 05:14, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
Forking Guidelines from Wikia
While I still hope that some or all of you will decide to stay at Wikia, it seems a good time to make sure the forking guidelines are on the wiki, and that everyone understands what is and isn't OK during a fork.
The main principle in these guidelines, is that we accept your right to fork, but that this wiki has a right to a future too. So nothing done on this wiki can be damaging to its future.
Our experience is that if we don't set things out clearly (or even bluntly) then it becomes more likely that there will be misunderstandings, or increasing conflict. So here are the guidelines for forking wikis:
Please do not link to your new wiki on the main page of the Wikia version. It's OK to link to a FAQ or blog post that discusses the change and links to the new wiki. This will be taken down sometime after the move date to allow the new/remaining community to start recovering.
Please make sure that any messaging (including on the main page) clearly says that people have a choice to move with you or to stay.
Please do not post to users' talk pages with messages about the fork. We look on this as spam - just as you would have if someone came here in the past, and started leaving mass messages about their site on talk pages.
Please do not try to delete pages, change fundamental elements of the site or otherwise damage the content. The wiki should be left intact and available for any future editors to use.
Please do not use the wiki to promote your new fork. This includes templates, notices or URLs on pages other than the announcement.
This doesn't cover all possibilities of course, so I'd would like to discuss anything not covered by these guidelines in advance. But this gives the outline for fork notices and covers the most common areas
One of the biggest problems during a fork is in conflicts of interest. We sometimes see suggestions of changes to the Wikia wiki, that seem relatively harmless, but which are actually designed to benefit the fork. Often we don't know if they will be harmful to this wiki, but the fact that they are not truly made for this wiki, makes them worrying. For this reason we ask that any major changes are delayed until after fork.
Another concern is admins who move to a new fork, but also try to influence the direction of the wiki they have left. Our normal practice is that we don't remove rights from departing admins, unless they try to harm the wiki or use it to promote their own. But, in my experience, there is no real way for an admin to look after two competing wikis without a conflict of interest. If you are trying to grow the fork, and do everything to make it a success, then you won't be also trying to get people to stay on the Wikia version and revitalize it with new users and new content. This wiki needs admins who can be fully dedicated to growing this wiki. Hopefully some admins will choose to stay on Wikia, rather than move to the fork, but if not we can help the remaining/future community choose new admins.
This has been quite a long message, but I hope it will help ensure everything goes smoothly and without conflict. Thanks for reading -- sannse (help forum | blog) 23:51, February 11, 2013 (UTC)
I must say, it's rather comical to hear you speaking of conflicts of interest as a representative of a company who has something to lose in these events. I know that I will not be resigning any rights here, nor will I abuse them. I don't know about the other admins, but I will continue to do what I've been doing for the last few months basically - participate in the odd discussion, appoint admins who pass an RfA and investigate any sockpuppetry cases that come up. But yeah, we'll respect these guidelines. As a note to anyone else reading this - if/when we do fork, I really hope that nobody stays behind here. The competition could ruin our new site for the majority of people who do move. Ajraddatz (Talk) 00:01, February 12, 2013 (UTC)
Sannse I just have a few questions that if you could answer for me if/when the fork happens. Can I delete my own personal pages such as customs, reviews, and templates under my username? And if no why not? I understand about the content articles but would it matter my own personal ones? Thanks. klagoername that user 02:51, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
Regardless of what Sannse says, you can delete your personal pages. That has always been acceptable on Brickipedia, and there is no reason why a move would change that. Ajraddatz (Talk) 18:24, February 16, 2013 (UTC)
Sorry for the slow reply, Klagoer, i missed this on Friday.
It would be fine for you to delete all of the pages in your personal namespace - as long as that doesn't affect other pages. For example, if one of your userspace templates were used on the main page, then that would need to be fixed before the template is deleted (I assume none of them are, that situation is rare, but I wanted to include it for clarity). Your sig template and your userpage are linked from a lot of places, but the redlink should in itself be clear in those cases (as they include your account name) so those would be OK.
Items in the customs and reviews namespaces are part of the wiki's content. So those should not be deleted. I'm not certain which templates you mean, but anything in the template namespace is also part of the wiki's content (or "structure", if you prefer) and shouldn't be removed. For example, UltrasonicNXT would not be allowed to delete Template:GetTheme which would probably break thousands of articles.
Hopefully that helps with your questions, please let me know if I've not been clear. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 00:22, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
That's what really ticks me off about wikia. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) Everything that we write on this wiki, all customs we make, and all reviews we write, belong to wikia. We're not allowed to delete them. By moving, the content belongs to us, and we have the flexibility to do what we want with it. –AgentCharge 19:56, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
No, none of those belong to Wikia. That's exactly why you are able to fork, because Wikia was set up to use a license that allows you to do so.
So how it works, is that the individual authors hold the copyright for what they create, but they allow anyone to use it under a free license (with a couple of conditions). That means that anyone (including those setting up the fork) can copy the content and host it elsewhere. It also means that Wikia can carry on hosting the content, even if you decide to go elsewhere - because you have already given us permission to do so (and the license does not allow you to retract that).
One of the things that Jimmy Wales wanted to do when he set up Wikia, was prove that this sort of open licensing could actually work for a company as well as for non-profits. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 22:18, February 25, 2013 (UTC)
Sansse, sending all users here a templated message about the move IS NOT vandalim. It just informing users about the new site. An of course yo won't let us do that because you work for wikia and the more users that stay here, the more money wikia gets. Absolutely rediculous.
"The community of Brickipedia has decided to move to a new site. If you wish to go to this new site, please click here." - perfectly fine. That is a totally open question, I am not stating any viewpoints, that is simply fact. You cannot dissalow that, all I am doing, is informing users of a community decision. Am I not allowed to tell users about community decisions anymore? - nxt
Darth henry - imagine an alternative: someone decides to create a brand new wiki on Wikia... or on another service somewhere... and he comes to your new wiki, and he starts to bot in a message on every talk page to say "my new wiki is better, come over here!" I would say he would be banned very quickly.
Even though in this case it would be people who have left this wiki for a new one, rather than someone unconnected, the general effect is the same. And what it comes down to in the end, is that you are not allowed to use Wikia to advertise your alternative wiki. Whether that's through banners or templates in articles, or talk page spam.
UltrasonicNXT: it's a statement from one point of view. It doesn't clearly state that this wiki will continue, and that some may choose to stay. That's something I mentioned in my list above - notices need to make sure they are clear about both options for each individual. It also doesn't give context, which linking to a discussion instead of directly to the new wiki will do (or at least, has a better chance of doing).
My list also says that a notice for the community is OK, and should be in a place where the community will see it (such as the main page - we can discuss other options if you don't want to have it there). This notification should point to the discussion or another suitable page, where people can read about the whole conversation, including the parts about this wiki continuing whether the fork happens or not. What we've had with similar situations in the past has been spamming, rather than notification, so we've put in these limits. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 00:22, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
It's a little bit different Sansse. Basically, the entire wiki (community, pages, and all) have been moved. The new wiki is this wiki, in essence. It's what people come for, not wikia's skin. Unless they want to chat, of course, but then they don't even have talk pages to post messages on. If I was new to Brickipedia, I would be glad for a message like that. -- BrickfilmNut Productions!
That's a matter of perspective. I know that those who forked the Spanish version of Wikipedia to create Enciclopedia Libre would agree with you (that's the first wiki fork I'm aware of). But the current healthy and vibrant community on es.Wikipedia would disagree. They would say that the community forked, the majority of the active editors at that time chose to use the new wiki, but that the community on es.Wikipedia recovered over time. The future community of this wiki may or may not have some of the same members as the current community. But either way, I want to make sure that community has the biggest chance of success possible (and that also applies if there is no fork, of course) -- sannse (help forum | blog) 22:05, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
Okay Sannse, how about "As per this community discussion, the community of Brickipedia has moved to a new site. If you wish to visit this site, please click here." I don't see how that is from one point of view, it is simply a fact. - nxt
This doesn't solve the problems I outlined above, UltrasonicNXT - the notice needs to acknowledge that this wiki will remain open, and people can choose to remain here. It also makes an incomplete statement about "the community". Some or all of the current community will choose to go to the fork (and so, of course, will no longer be part of this wiki's community, they will be the community of that wiki). This wiki will develop a new community, either based on those that choose to remain, or out of future visitors.
I'm also not clear at the moment whether we are talking about the wording of the main page notice (or similar placement, if we agree on that), or some other notice. As it says in the list above, there can't be a link to the fork from the main page, and there can't be a mass-talk page notice. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 22:05, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
Just a note, Brickipedia has always allowed external links in signatures (See SKP). If we were to move, I know that I would link my sig to the new project, though obviously the signature wouldn't entirely be an ad for the new site. Ajraddatz (Talk) 18:24, February 16, 2013 (UTC)
When there is a fork, the situation changes. Links to the new site are not allowed, except in specific places. As I said above, a forum page or other announcement linking to the fork is OK... we will also accept it if you add a link on your own userpage, to show where you have gone -- sannse (help forum | blog) 00:22, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
Wikia, this just makes me think less of you. We can get everyone to the fork if we want. We don't want to be here anymore, and we want all users to know, including new users so they won't be left in a quiet wiki. You should back off. The only reason you think we shouldn't make a huge announcement is because you want people to stay here because of you money? I'm threw with you, Wikia. We have to have templates and such so people know to not go to this wiki, and go to the new wiki, so don't do this about the fork.
I kind of have to agree with parts of this statement. I know you don't want the "future/remaining community" to be damaged, but can't they just take it down if they are bothered by it? And, really, why would anyone want to attend a "quiet" wiki that's not only lacking updates (as all the editors will have moved), but also has more ads and what-not. Not being able to inform them that there's an updated, active wiki seems like more harm than not informing them. And I'm not pressing for something excessive. I just think a banner or two would be a good idea, though. -- BrickfilmNut Productions!
Obviously Wikia will remove any banners and such, and block anyone who tries to put banners up. Don't worry, we'll be getting a fair bit of advertising around the Internet without having banners here ;) NightblazeSaber 22:39, February 18, 2013 (UTC)
Oh yeah- to anyone also on Brickset, Eurobricks, other fansites, etc, a link to the new site (when the new site is up) in your signature or wherever (if such a link is permitted) would be much appreciated NightblazeSaber 22:41, February 18, 2013 (UTC)
I was already planning on it. --Berrybrick(Talk) 00:57, February 19, 2013 (UTC)
Awesomeknight1234 and BrickfilmNut: of course we want people to use Wikia, I'm not going to apologize for that. Saying that we want people to stay for the money, is like saying a movie theater wants you to go watch movies for the money. Of course they want your business, that's what they do for a living, and how they pay for new features like chat seats with cup holders. And they certainly don't want you putting up posters for the theater next door! But, if they are a good movie theater, they also want to make sure you enjoy yourself and come back to enjoy more in the future. And if they are a great one, they also take pride and joy in doing things right and enjoy spending time talking movies with their customers. We want to be a great movie theater.
We've seen forks happen and wikis recover many times now. We know that a wiki can be quiet at first, but revive over time and become active and successful. If people choose to stay, then that process is faster, but it can happen either way. There will be people who will choose this wiki in the future and I want to make sure that they have the best chance of reviving the wiki that they can possibly have. That's my job and the right thing to do for the future of this wiki. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 00:22, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
Ever think that those wikis that recovered may have been in part because of a lack of information about the moved wiki? :P -- BrickfilmNut Productions!
Well of course they are going to have a better chance of recovery if the wiki isn't being used to advertise an alternative site. That's like saying Cadbury's success is, in part, due to them refusing to have an ad for Hershey's on their chocolate bars ;)
We allow forking wikis to put up a notice and inform everyone what's going on, and we don't take down pages like this forum page after the fork. That means there's a long-term record of what happened. But we also don't feel obliged to allow this wiki to become a permanent advert for another site. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 00:53, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
"We allow forking wikis to put up a notice and inform everyone what's going on... But we also don't feel obliged to allow this wiki to become a permanent advert for another site." Fair enough. :) As long as we can put up a notice. -- BrickfilmNut Productions!
Sannse - about the reviews and customs - userpages are taken as the user's property, for example. Users are allowed to delete their own userpages (or alternatively, blank them) if they want to. Reviews and customs have been, since they were set up, more of an 'owned' page than an encyclopedic page. Users are discouraged from editing other's customs/reviews (except for removing incorrect categories, mainspace templates, etc.) We have always allowed people to delete their own customs and reviews. I don't see why this would change now. Jag 23:09, February 25, 2013 (UTC)
I understand that they have a different "ownership" feel from other pages. The same is true on all pages of some wikis (fanon wikis, for example). But those pages are still part of the make-up of the wiki - part of its content and what make it interesting. They are also under the same license as other pages, which is what allows you to copy them to the fork, and what allows this wiki to keep showing them here. As I said above, it's OK for User: pages to be removed (as long as that doesn't cause wider problems), but not the Reviews and Customs pages. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 20:04, February 27, 2013 (UTC)
So do we now need to undelete every custom or review that has been deleted per a user request in the past?! This case is exactly the same as those ones. - nxt
That's nonsense. I can understand for the mainspace, but deletion per author request has always been a valid deletion reason here. If you really want, Sannse, we can wait a few months before removing them and see what the community thinks then, but I can guarantee that even then people will be OK with removing a user's own customs at their request. Ajraddatz (Talk) 19:57, February 28, 2013 (UTC)
UltrasonicNXT: no, it's a different case now. Now we are in the midst of a fork, and that makes a big difference.
Ajraddatz: I'm certainly OK with discussing this again a few months after the wiki has settled from the fork. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 20:06, March 1, 2013 (UTC)
That Games Wiki
At NBS' prodding I will try and revive the Brickipedia Games Wiki once we move but since the reason it died before was due to the slow response time and such, I think we will need a larger panel of game masters to keep a game running. It might not sound very enticing to those who were actually interested in the games, but I am working on a system where gamemasters can play alongside others. --Berrybrick(Talk) 18:11, February 18, 2013 (UTC)
Support game wiki on new site (As original prodder :P) NightblazeSaber 22:19, February 18, 2013 (UTC)
Games wiki would be good. It takes up virtually no server resources to add another site like that, and if people wanted to use it then sure. Ajraddatz (Talk) 22:20, February 18, 2013 (UTC)
The games were essentially just a page with comments.. couldn't we have a place on the forums for them? βʊʛ™Ʈҩƪҡ - Customs 23:01, February 18, 2013 (UTC)
I don't see why or why not. I am indifferent either way. --Berrybrick(Talk) 00:55, February 19, 2013 (UTC)
Actually, I think a separate wiki might be best because that allows for individual pages where necessary, but I would have to see the new forums first. --Berrybrick(Talk)
Yeah, it'd be a bit difficult to set up character pages, and for item purchases you'd need a separate forum... I think it'd get a bit out of hand if it was just in a forum NightblazeSaber 04:06, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
You wouldn't need multiple forums, just multiple posts on the forum and your character stats would be in your signature or on your userpage. βʊʛ™Ʈҩƪҡ - Customs 23:13, February 25, 2013 (UTC)
Fan fictions on the customs namespace/wiki?
This could probably be its own forum, but I was thinking that when we had a separate wiki for customs we could start including fan fictions as part of it as long as they are based on an official or custom theme? I think it might be a good way to increase the LEGO fan site image. --Berrybrick(Talk) 00:47, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
That sounds like a good idea. There have been many customs like that which ended up getting deleted, and as far as I know, there's now real wiki or anything for generic LEGO fanfic. There are mainly just places for fanfic related to a specific theme at the moment. -- BrickfilmNut Productions!
I know there are a few, but I don't think they get very much attention. --Berrybrick(Talk) 00:56, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
I think that idea would be nice, especially for people like me who have very detailed themes (which are still in concept) Jay
As long as it's a 100% completely separate wiki (like LMBW) NightblazeSaber 04:02, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
I agree, I like the fan-fiction idea, but we are an encyclopedia. Let's keep it separate this time. -NBP 15:14, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
(I was going to propose this on the new wiki when it was up, but after reading above, this is sort of similar). I was wondering if a new "Fan:" namespace would be a good idea, one which can articles on things like noteworthy fan conventions not officially run by TLG, and also for terms so people not right into LEGO can figure what some terms people may be referring to in forums, eg "purist", "MOC", etc. Either a namespace or another separate wiki (as Cligra said below, it'd be a very small wiki :P) NightblazeSaber 04:02, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
Personally I think fan conventions and such can be acceptable in the namespace. The first sentence of the article would say, for example "BrickFair is a series of LEGO conventions in the United States run by fans." A custom namespace would also prevent it from coming up when clicking "Random page" on the sidebar (Special:Random). As for those terms, a mainspace page "LEGO Lexicon of Terms" could work, as a list of these terms and meanings. --ToaMeiko (talk) 13:54, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
As far as I am aware, a mainspace page concerning commonly used terms already exists. -- Bug
It definitely used to - might have been AFDed though ~ CJC 11:51, February 26, 2013 (UTC)
I'm a little confused as to how the forums are being set up. We've got the forum extension (obviously)- are we putting one forum on every wiki we have, or are we having one wiki which is just a forum? NightblazeSaber 21:54, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
Good question, I'm not sure yet. My original plan was to have one forum, on meta. Ajraddatz (Talk) 23:27, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
With separate boards for each subwiki? (with the wikis running things very differently from each other, I can't see it working if it was all integrated together :S) NightblazeSaber 00:20, February 22, 2013 (UTC)
I thought you said we would keep our old accounts! I tried logging in on the new site, and it said I wasn't a registered user... are the accounts not set up yet?BrikkyyTalk Extras!
No, it isn't. The site you are looking at isn't exactly where Brickipedia will be, either. Ajraddatz (Talk) 01:15, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
Another question about our accounts when moving to a new site and Brickimedia, in the past we've had the official Wikia moderators managing our accounts. So how do we know our passwords and other personal information of our account will be protected during the move to the new website? What security do we have in place for that? -
I'm guessing you mean "when we import the accounts, can the people running the new wiki see your password?". If so, the answer to that is no. I believe what the systems administrators have the ability to see (and what anyone running Wikia can see on Wikia) is an encrypted version of your password- and noone can easily deduce your actual password, even if they have that encrypted data. Usually what happens is when you first make a password, the password is encrypted using a one-way encryption algorithm. It is then the encrypted data that is stored, not your actual password. When you log in, the password you put in is put through the same encryption algorithm, and it is the two encrypted versions of the password that are compared, not the actual password itself. I have no idea if that's what Wikia or Brickimedia does, but I assume it is. Hope that helps NightblazeSaber 05:55, February 26, 2013 (UTC)
A more of a detailed answer than I was expecting, but yes, thank you for explaining NBS. -
Yeah, nobody on Brickimedia will have access to your secured user data (except for CheckUsers who can see your IP, as usual). If anything, your personal information will be more secure on Brickimedia because there will be less people that can look at it. Ajraddatz (Talk) 11:45, February 26, 2013 (UTC)
I think this needs to be a bit clearer. The important part, from Wikia's point of view, is to explain that Wikia does not give your passwords to anyone. At this point, the new wiki does not have your passwords, and they will not get them from us.
How they can get your password, is for you to enter it on their site. What happens then (if they are using the extension I think they are) is that their system visits Wikia and logs in as you to test that the username and password match. If they do, then your account is created on the new wiki with that username and password.
Ajr, if you are using MediaWikiAuth, have you considered alternative extensions? I don't know if it's published, but I've seen one where each user puts a code on their user page to verify their ownership of that account. It's not quite as seamless a user experience, but much more secure. And I'm sure there are other solutions out there... After getting one of our techy guys to look at MediaWikiAuth, it doesn't look like a good choice. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 22:21, March 1, 2013 (UTC)
Nope. I'm also not sure why you are spending so much time explaining that Wikia doesn't give out passwords, nobody was suggesting that you were. I'm also not sure why you're accusing the new site of being insecure with user information. Ajraddatz (Talk) 22:24, March 1, 2013 (UTC)
Oops, I missed this comment, and don't want to leave it hanging.
When it's said that user data is on the new wiki, it can be misunderstood to mean that Wikia gives out that data. I just want to be sure that that misunderstanding doesn't happen.
I'm not accusing the new site of being insecure. As I said, "On both wikis [...] your password is encrypted". My concern is with the extension you are (probably) using, and whether it uses plain text while checking the entered password by logging in to Wikia. That's why I suggested that you look at alternatives. -- sannse (help forum | blog) 00:34, March 8, 2013 (UTC)
Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.