Talk: Blacksmith (Knights' Kingdom)

Article Name

Yes, LEGO Quest & Collect is an official LEGO product, and I did admittedly start the project to create various minifigure articles using the names provided by the game. In several cases, Quest & Collect provides a clearer, more distinctive name for a minifigure that otherwise just has a generic descriptor in Shop At Home product descriptions, such as Mr. Frypan or Ms. Dagger. But when I created this article last year knowing fully well that he was called "Crossbow" in Quest & Collect, I hesitated to use that name and instead stuck with "Blacksmith", his descriptor in the 10176 King's Castle product description.

An effective article name should ideally be clear and recognizable. While it is official, Quest & Collect is still very obscure (being only released in various Asian countries, and being closed less than a year after its grand launch). Therefore, it is far more likely that LEGO fans would recognize this minifigure primarily as the blacksmith in 10176 who never wields a crossbow, rather than that one time he wielded a crossbow in an obscure game. "Blacksmith" describes him much better than "Crossbow", in that case.

Now, it is true that, in their respective sets, Wrench Crook doesn't wield a wrench and Double Axe Orc doesn't wield any axes. But in those cases, there is no better alternative descriptor name to use from product descriptions; Wrench Crook is simply a "crook" in a theme overflowing with them, and Double Axe Orc isn't given any special distinction beyond his fellow Troll Warriors. In contrast, there are only two blacksmiths in Knights' Kingdom, and Blacksmith (Knights' Kingdom II) already has "II" in his article name to disambiguate from this article's former title, so Blacksmith (Knights' Kingdom) works just fine in clearly indicating which blacksmith he is.

Therefore, I'd suggest moving this article back to its original title. --PeabodySam (talk) 23:02, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Well, it doesn't make sense to move the page to Blacksmith (Knights' Kingdom) as there are pages such as Wrench Crook and Double Axe Orc. Also, there might be many crooks, but that doesn't mean that the blacksmith shouldn't be called Crossbow. Also, for the problem between Blacksmith (Knights' Kingdom) and Blacksmith (Knights' Kingdom II), it would be easier to rename the Blacksmith from Knights' Kingdom II to the Blacksmith from Knights' Kingdom, also most people know Slinger Crook and Wrench Crook as simple crooks, so I don't see why that it a problem. --Bjsjkw (Talk) 11:22, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

I thought I clearly explained why Crossbow is different from Wrench Crook and Double Axe Orc, since "Crook" (of which there are dozens) and "Troll Warrior" (of which there are at least six) are much more generic terms than "Blacksmith"... or, in this case, "Blacksmith (Knights' Kingdom)", of which there are only two. Therefore, Wrench Crook and Double Axe Orc are more useful names for minifigures with no other non-generic names, while Blacksmith is a more accurate name for a blacksmith minifigure who never uses a crossbow in sets. Do you see what I mean?

There's another key difference, too. Wrench Crook and Slinger Crook still have "crook" in their name. Double Axe Orc has "orc" (a common fan term for Troll Warrior) in his name. Therefore, you can still get an idea of what these minifigures are just from the article's name. Tell me, would you be able to figure out that "Crossbow" is the name of a blacksmith? --PeabodySam (talk) 00:56, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

PeabodySam, Crossbow should still be the name despite all the reasons you have stated, after all, it's the name given by LEGO. Also, there are many blacksmiths, so it would be useful to give an unique name to them. Blacksmith isn't an accurate name for Crossbow as in many other cases, (You yourself, pointed this out) Wrench Crook doesn't use a wrench, and Double Axe Orc doesn't use an axe. And even though there are many crooks in the city theme and many orcs/trolls in the castle theme, there are many blacksmiths in the castle theme too. --User:Bjsjkw (Talk) 1:57, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

"Bjsjkw, Blacksmith should still be the name despite all the reasons you have stated, after all, it's the name given by LEGO." See how easy it is to turn that argument around?

As I've said before (such as on Talk:Arctic Explorer Aurora), it's important to not just take all official LEGO sources at face value, and it's necessary to carefully consider them when documenting them here on Brickipedia. Especially when there are contradictions between multiple sources; not only is Quest & Collect a lot more obscure than the sets it's based upon, but it also takes a lot of liberties with the LEGO source material (just take a look at the bios for Vladek and Mosquitoid, which are nothing like their canonical selves in Knights' Kingdom and Galaxy Squad), and giving a blacksmith a crossbow and calling him "Crossbow" is one such liberty. But let's just assume for a moment that all official sources (product descriptions, video games, etc.) are equal in "value". What works best, then?

• "Wrench Crook" or "Crook"? Well, we can't use "Crook" because there are lots of crooks, so we need to disambiguate. We can't use "Crook (City)", and it's not like 60138 High-speed Chase is in a particular City subtheme with only one crook, so we'd likely have to use "Crook (High-speed Chase)" or "Crook (60138)". In that case, "Wrench Crook" is easier to use because it's a simpler title that doesn't require disambiguation, is a more unique name, and still clearly identifies the minifigure as a crook.
• "Double Axe Orc" or "Troll Warrior"? Well, we can't use "Troll Warrior" because there are multiple Troll Warriors, so we need to disambiguate. We can't use "Troll Warrior (Castle 2007)" because all Troll Warriors are in the 2007 Castle theme, and we can't use "Troll Warrior (Troll Battle Wheel)" or "Troll Warrior (7041)" because 7041 Troll Battle Wheel includes multiple generic Troll Warriors as well. We'd have to resort to using an unofficial disambiguation like "Troll Warrior (Skull Armor)". At that point, it's simpler and easier just to use "Double Axe Orc", which doesn't require disambiguation, is a more unique name, and still clearly identifies the minifigure as an orc (which, as I've said before, is a common fan nickname for Troll Warriors).
• "Crossbow" or "Blacksmith"? In this case, both titles require disambiguation, so the "simpler title without disambiguation" argument wouldn't work here. So, it's either "Crossbow (Minifigure)" or "Blacksmith (Knights' Kingdom)"... which was a perfectly valid title option before you went ahead and preemptively moved Blacksmith (Knights' Kingdom II) to that name, so I guess we'd have to use "Blacksmith (Royal King's Castle)" or "Blacksmith (10176)" instead. Since both titles require disambiguation, I can't say that "Crossbow (Minifigure)" is simpler. More importantly, it doesn't do a good job identifying the article's subject. If you didn't know about Quest & Collect (which, again, is obscure), would you know what "Crossbow (Minifigure)" is? It's a crossbow that's a minifigure? What does that even mean? At least Cutlass (Minifigure) sounds like something associated with pirates, and he actually does wield a cutlass in 40158 Pirates Chess Set. With "Blacksmith (Knights' Kingdom)", you know it's the only blacksmith from the Knights' Kingdom subtheme of Castle.

To sum it up: Wrench Crook is still a crook. Double Axe Orc is still an orc. Crossbow... isn't a crossbow. He's a blacksmith first and foremost, in his most recognizable appearance and role, and the name "Crossbow" doesn't reflect that at all. To ignore that and instead call him "Crossbow" risks making things too confusing and esoteric. --PeabodySam (talk) 23:55, 13 April 2021 (UTC)

Sorry to cut in. I will admit I haven't read everything but I thought I'd give some thoughts. First thing I did was check the manual of style. It wasn't written with this game in mind and ultimately this may be something we will need to determine on the MOS. What it said was targeted at licensed figures, but it says that "minifigures should be given the name that they are given on any official LEGO website, box or other official LEGO material, unless the name clearly contradicts the name of the character is meant to represent". So here we have two given names "blacksmith" and "crossbow". In my mind (and granted again the mos will need to be better formatted for situations like this), as we have two names I'd say we use the one that is closer to what the minifigure's occupation as the figure never used a crossbow in the set. --Toa Kopaka Nuva (talk) 00:09, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I must say that I feel Crossbow is the correct name as it is an official name given by LEGO, and it is the most recent name given by LEGO. While, Crossbow doesn't have a crossbow in the sets, that doesn't mean Crossbow can't be the name. I have redirected Blacksmith (Knights' Kingdom) to Crossbow (Minifigure) and I have made Blacksmith (Knights' Kingdom II) a separate article. So, as Crossbow is the latest official name given by LEGO, I feel it should remain as the page's name, but as Blacksmith is also an official name, I have redirected that page to Crossbow. (Also, I want to point out that even though his name is Crossbow, it doesn't necessarily mean that he is a crossbow.) --Bjsjkw (Talk) 12:42, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm not disputing whether or not Crossbow is the "correct" name or an "official" name; I'm disputing whether it's the best name to use. I agree with Toa Kopaka Nuva in that the name that best matches the minifigure should be the one that is used for the article.

I'm also not sure that the "most recent name" is necessarily the best policy to follow, at least not strictly. There are multiple instances where the "most recent name" does not match a more commonly-used prior name. For example, LEGO Racers would be the most recent named appearance of characters like Alpha Draconis, Black Jack Hawkins, and King Richard, but the first two have misspelled names, and the latter is not referred to by name. Soccer Mania comes with its own slew of problems, such as changing Harry Cane's otherwise-consistent English name to his German while reassigning "Harry Cane" to another character (who appears to be Mike) instead, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. And Quest & Collect itself contains a couple examples; Chop'rai is spelled differently from all other Ninjago media, Gilbert the Bad loses his distinctive title, and Chase McCain is not even referred to by name; I also deliberately chose to name Ferry Boat Captain and Female Stunt Pilot after their product descriptions, which are more specific than their more generic Quest & Collect names (Captain and Pilot, respectively).

Therefore, while I don't think there's any one single best rule to name all minifigures in the event of naming conflict, since there will likely be exceptions and case-by-case scenarios, I do think that a minifigure article's name should ideally reflect the minifigure's most well-known role (whether that's in a set, a video game, etc.) and/or be distinctive and recognizable enough that the reader can determine what the article is about. And let's face it; "Crossbow (Minifigure)" isn't the best example of that.

Furthermore, here's one more point. 10176 Royal King's Castle actually contains another minifigure who is only known officially as "Crossbow Knight". Don't you think it's going to be confusing having "Crossbow" and "Crossbow Knight" in the same set when only the latter actually uses a crossbow in the set? --PeabodySam (talk) 22:25, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I guess it might be confusing as there is Crossbow and Crossbow Knight in the same set, but I still feel that Crossbow is the correct name of the minifigure, as it is a more distinctive name than Blacksmith, and Blacksmith isn't the trademark name of this minifigure. I agree with the cases such as Gilbert the Bad and Chase McCain. (Especially Chase McCain) --Bjsjkw (Talk) 10:43 PM, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Blacksmith isn't necessarily "trademark", but it is much more well-known and associated with this minifigure. Crossbow loses its distinctiveness when paired up with Crossbow Knight in the same set, and it isn't as recognizable for this minifigure, making it more esoteric. --PeabodySam (talk) 22:49, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

Not necessarily, Crossbow and Crossbow Knight may be in the same set, but it is still more distinctive than Blacksmith, as there are so many blacksmiths in the Castle theme. And again Blacksmith isn't a trademark name, it might be well known... but that is the same case with Wrench Crook. Crook is the most well-known name but Wrench Crook is more distinctive. --Bjsjkw (Talk) 10:54 PM, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

But as I've already said, there's only one blacksmith in Knights' Kingdom (not directly linked to the canonical Knights' Kingdom II storyline), and "Wrench Crook" still includes the recognizable "Crook" in its name while "Crossbow" does not include the recognizable "Blacksmith". The fact that I'm going in circles and repeating this argument means I'm not going to be able to change your mind, am I? --PeabodySam (talk) 23:27, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I believe the best was to settle this dispute is to hold a community vote on what to do in this situation.-Toa Kopaka Nuva (talk) 23:31, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

I know there is only one blacksmith in Knights' Kingdom, but there are still many blacksmiths in the Castle theme overall. And I know, that Wrench Crook included Crook, but that doesn't mean that Crossbow must include Blacksmith. (We are going in circles, I guess. This conversation is too long. Wow. My mind is blown.) Also, a community vote does sound good. --Bjsjkw (Talk) 11:36 PM, 15 April 2021 (UTC)